So. . .my thoughtful brother in law decided to go for broke by asking a pastor "on air" what his view on baptism was. His question was and I quote "Do you think the non baptized are going to hell? i.e. Is it a salvation issue for you?" This question was posed in the comment section of my Born Again post.
My first response was not to respond but I was quickly reminded by my conscience that, that is not a response. How right she is. Yes, my conscience is a she. I've even named her Angie. Back to Jord's question.
Not responding is not good enough and responding but only dancing is even worse. I've always hated it when pastors skirt important questions and I've never wanted to be that guy so I'm not going to be.
Before you continue reading, if you haven't already read my Born again post then please scroll down and do so now. It'll save me having to repeat a bunch of stuff. So go, read.
Welcome back. Now that you're aware of my history and how I feel about it we can proceed.
As I said in my Born again post, I no longer believe baptism to be a legal transaction where we trade in our sins and are given eternal life in return. My reason for not believing this is two fold. One, I do not believe our salvation to be a legal process. And two, I feel this legal view of baptism promotes selfish Christianity. It is my believe that salvation is a daily walk, something "we work out" - as Paul says -not in a way that denies grace but in a way where in the light of that grace we take ownership of our faith recognizing that it will involve a never ending cycle of doubt, growth and movement. To claim that all one must do to be saved is be immersed under water and say "yes I believe' when prodded takes away from that process. I can't tell you how many people I know, including myself, who got baptized then proceeded to become one of the most prideful, self consumed, self righteous people to walk the face of the earth. Where's the motivation in living your life for Jesus when you're already assured of your salvation at 12 years old? After all, that is the reason to live your life like Jesus, right? Reward in the after life? Insert sarcasm here. The life of God is so vast, so deep and so wide yet we think all we need to do to be immersed into it is a tub of water and a deep breath.
Getting baptized in order to complete a faith legal transaction makes God the judge, Jesus the attorney, me the defendent and you all the witnesses. Yeah, I've seen that clever skit to. But I guess what I'm honestly wondering is - why do I have to be on trial? I don't want a relationship with the divine because his son managed to pull off a miracle in the courtroom, I want a relationship with the divine because I want a relationship with the divine. I want it because I know I'll never fully be human until I can connect with the one who made me so. I don't want God because Acts 2:38 said I had to have him in order to be saved. I don't want God because the thought of hell terrifies me. I want God for God's sake. And I want baptism to represent that!
I mentioned that getting baptized for legal reasons begets selfish Christianity. I say this because human nature tends to do things for pragmatic reasons, meaning, they'll participate if they believe it'll work out positively in the end. The central claim baptism makes is that it'll more then work out for us in the end, we'll spend forever with God in heaven. And so we take the plunge. What I wonder though is - how is that not selfish? "I'll take the plunge to avoid hell." If I were God I'd be tempted to say "Thanks, but don't bother." God wants us for relationship first. Righteousness will follow.
Jordan also asked if I thought that the non baptized will go to hell. I believe there will be people separated from God in the after life mainly because there are people separated from God already, in this life. I think we choose our eternity right now. I think our eternal relationship with God will be a reflection of our temporal one. Jesus said it himself "eternal life is about knowing God." Knowing God. Those are relational words. Not legal terms. I believe Hell to be the absence of God in our life and its an absence we choose for ourselves. So, yes I believe that there will be some people who aren't baptized who will and do experience "hell" as I described it here, but I also believe that there will be some people who ARE baptized who will and do experience hell as I described it here. Baptism doesn't nor shouldn't take the place of relationship. And its the relationship which saves us. Now and forever.
All these things considered, what function does baptism play in the life of a Christian?
Before I answer I think it would be helpful to consider the role it played in the first century. As Christians we tend to assume that most of our traditions were invented by us. The opposite is often true. Most of our traditions were once traditions of the pagans but we took and changed them to suit our own means. Now don't hear me wrong, I'm not implying that our traditions are tainted because they were once pagan I'm only suggesting that its helpful to know where they came from. Baptism was a rite of passage in the first century - especially in main stream socieity. It was used as a form of initiation into communities of all sorts as it represented commitment, faith and loyalty in those communities. When John the Baptist came on the scene he used baptism as a way for people to join his community of faith. The baptism of John was not the same as the baptism we enage in today as "John's was of water but Jesus' is of fire." When John said that I believe he was making a distinction. He was saying that the baptism of Jesus goes beyond the typical initiation rite. I believe he said this because he knew that Jesus was special. And that his message carried more weight. My point with all this is - baptism was a tradition long before Christianity but was adopted by Chrisitianity because it was a common cultural symbol that resonated with people therefore why not use it as the primary symbol of commitment and loyalty to Jesus Christ. In other words, there's nothing magic or unique about baptism itself, the uniqueness comes in what it represents. And for Christians, it represents love, commitment and loyalty to God as known in Jesus Christ.
As far as today, I believe baptism plays a very formative role in the life of a Christian just as I believe a wedding plays a very formative role in the life of a married couple. I believe its important to be able to look back and say - January 15th 1989 - that was the day I made my love for God public. Or, August 16th 1997, that was the day I made my love for Angie public. That being said, I still think its important to note that my love for God on January 14/89 was exactly the same or even more then my love for him on January 15th. (More only because on the actual day I was more concerned about the fact that I had forgotten a change of underwear then I was that I had just gone public with my faith.) Do I think that if I died on January 14th that I'd spend an eternity apart from God. No! My relationship with God began months, even years before the day I actually went public with it. And as Jesus said, eternal life is about relationship. Now and forever.
A couple weeks ago, Mulbuh, one of the African teens in my youth group, asked me if I might baptize him. When I asked him why he wanted to get baptized he said "It's time I lived the life of God."
Amen.
John
P.S. So Jord, now that I've shared I believe its time you did. So tell us, what really happened that night you called 411?
Tuesday, January 16, 2007
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18 comments:
cool post john.
i like that you feel free to share what you think about baptism. it seems in the church of Christ culture, baptism is one of those taboo subjects where if it is questioned or even discussed, people feel threatened and write you off as a heretic. maybe that's a little extreme, but i appreciate your willingness to share, nonetheless.
i would be interested to open up the whole discussion on hell that you touched on a bit in your post. not necessarily here, but that is another one of those issues christians are often afraid to discuss. or would that be opening up pandora's box...? i guess it would be. literally.
Glad you answered Jord's question....ahem.....
Anyone care to dive in to mine?
Thanks, John, for immersing my mind into (not just in) a great topic! My thoughts have been quite provoked. The Bible has much to say about God not appreciating it when humans substitute ritual for real relationship with Him. In reading the minor prophets one could get the impression that God outright hates rituals. Certainly, if someone thought they were going to heaven because they punched their ticket at the bottom of a baptistry but made no further effort to have a living relationship with their Creator and Sustainer, He would be offended. Heartless, repentless, I'll-get-this-thing-out-of-the-way-that-God-asked-me-to-do-so-I-can-go-on-doing-my-own-thing baptisms and Communion snacks are empty rituals that accomplish nothing. As if God hasn't given us any options, we have created our own array of rituals which often replace an authentic relationship with God...church attendance, daily Bible reading, etc. Interestingly, that has never stopped God from prescribing rituals. Moses didn't invent the tabernacle, God prescribed it for the Jews. Paul didn't invent the Lord's Supper, he passed on what he received ultimately from Jesus.
It helps me (and hopefully the people I teach) to view baptism as a burail ritual. Some prefer the wedding ceremony. For me it is the burial of a dead person. The death has already taken place (I believe as a component of repentance) and now what remains is to visibly put that corpse in a grave while inviting God to resurrect it to a new life, one in which it is no longer I that live but Christ living in me. It must go beyond public ritual and it must go way beyond that particular moment in time when I am buried (in water, thankfully). Working out my salvation in relationship to God with all its ups and downs is a life-long process. It began for me almost from day one in my life and will never be completed until God rescues me from this earthly existence.
Let's go with the wedding imagery. At the moment of baptism (which for me was age 10) a ceremony or ritual was performed to formalize the process of salvation. Legalize is the wrong word, but formalize is not. I know, the government knows, all of my friends and family know that I am married to Jane because we had a ceremony at some particular point in time. The relationship started before that day and, praise God, continues on. The ceremony is not what makes us husband and wife (one flesh), but it is when this union was formalized before others and to each other and anyone opposed (although no one raised their hand when asked). If two people want to develop a relationship with each other that is "one flesh"-like, they ought to formalize it (get married), not just go at it and if it happens, it happens or if it lassts, it lasts. That's where the role of bpatism emerges as a ceremony. It gives a person the opportunity to formally say, "I pledge to be one spirit with my God for as long as we both shall live." The pursuit and beginning of that relationship is a process of faith that happens before the ceremnoy and must certainly continue to develop after the ceremony for it to be a successful marriage. But God wants the ceremony so we can make our declaration formally to Him and to the world (a confession or, of sorts, a wedding). (By the way, I'm not the first person to suggest a wedding and a funeral have a lot in common.!)
Thanks for your thoughtful handling of questions about baptism.
I'll shut up now.
Well said, John. Thanks!
It makes me happy to see that people, like you, are really thinking this through. It was one of my biggest theological encounters in college and I was in many ways forced to figure out what I really think based on Scripture.
I admire your honesty and ability to put your thoughts about this into words. So again, well said!
Hey Steve,
One time this guy told me that his wife took some oil and smeared it above the door of her business. I simply asked him where in the Bible did he find that. He said it wasn't there. Why then, I asked. He asked me why I thought she might do it.
We talked for some time and realized that she did it with pure motivation. She loves God. It was her way of giving her business to God from her heart.
Here is my secret. The most sacred moment for me was not my baptism, prayer life, communion, singing, but when I am alone in the shower. I don't know what it is but I connect with God there. I am naked (awkward moment). I feel the water washing over me and I talk to Him about washing things away. I usually sing prayers at that time. It is just my thing.
If getting baptised again is something that makes sense for you and Him. I bet He'd think was a beautiful thing. Like the woman that broke into that man party and did the oil thing with Jesus. She was actually breaking some common religious laws, but Jesus said: Beautiful.
Brian
As far as the baptism stuff, here is my take; at this stage in my journey (that buzz word is getting old for me, do I have a seconder?).
Part of me thinks, spirituality transends the physical. Other part says, give him a glass of water, that is the kind of salvation living Jesus is looking for. I don't think you can seperate physical and spiritual. I think, as John Close described, that heaven will involve much of what we do here, except in a much more realistic way (okay, don't have that all sorted out either).
God seems to love it all. The physical mixed with emotional, mixed with spiritual, mixed with ritual, mixed with spontaneity, mixed with trial, mixed with food. Kind of like the relationship my wife is looking for in me.
Brian
p.s. Obviously there needs to be more said here.
Ok, another question for clarification:
If someone never goes to church, never takes communion, never gets baptized, and yet has a loving personal relationship with God, then are they going to Hell? If so, doesn't that seem a bit... weird?
I think that, if God exists, he probably cares more about your relationship with him than the specific relationship-enhancing rituals you choose to perform. Seems to me that the rituals are just a means to an end (the end being a relationship with God), and if other means are found, what's wrong with that? Christians these days tend to focus on the means rather than the end (like that Buddhist analogy with the finger and the moon... you know the one).
By the way, I agree with Blair that the doctrine of Hell should be discussed. Personally, I can't reconcile the doctrine of Hell with the existence of a benevolent God, and I imagine many of you secretly (or not, if you subscribe to the doctrine of universal salvation) feel the same way. Takers?
Thanks Brian. (And sorry if I beat you up as a student at Western...wait, other way around, lol).
I appreciated your comments and am really compelled to seriously consider re-committing my life to Christ. I don't know any other way to do that than to perhaps take that plunge again....I'll pray about it.
Jordan, look what you started....quite the discussion. One thing I would say about someone who is truly connected with God and going to Church. I think to stay strong, especially in today's world, one has to connect with someone, some people for encouragement, strength, etc. Plus God does call us to commune with fellow believers. (Pretty sure you need more than one for that). Just another thought.
PS - Thank you Oilers, (for beating Minnesota).....totally irrelevant to the rest of the conversation....sorry.
Steve
I am not a scholar but I believe that there is an exchange when we are baptised. We exchange our willingness to follow God and gives us the holy spirit. I do very much see it as a transaction. Not that this caused my life to change greatly before and after - but to me it is more than a public statement of my faith.
And don't be too hard on Christians who are too "earnest" at first. God takes us where we are at (in our belief and disbelief) and helps us grown and mature through our life experiences. The longer you walk with God the better you know him and the more you learn about yourself.
Cool discussion - I love to think that you and Angie are so involved with your faith to examine it so closely.
If someone never goes to church, never takes communion, never gets baptized, and yet has a loving personal relationship with God, then are they going to Hell? If so, doesn't that seem a bit... weird?
Jordan, that is like saying, if an orange looks like an apple is it still an orange? Yes, but something is wrong. We go to heaven based on our relationship with God not by what we do or what we look like...and we all have something wrong.
The real question is, what is this relationship? It is defined best, I think, in the wonderful story of the "prodigal son".
As for hell, I hold a view more like the JWs (did I say that?) and the Church of God. The Bible says it is a place of fire and of darkness. Since you can't have both at the same time the descriptions must be symbolic. I would say sybolic of the tragedy and waste of missing out on paradice with our Creator. The Bible also says the Spirit gives us life (eternal life from that relationship with the eternal God) without which we have no eternal life. There is enough material on that topic to keep one busy a long time.
The early Catholic church propogated the current literal view of hell to scare people into becoming Christians...again, my opinion.
captain anonymous
Jord, I have a limited understanding, but this may be a place to start from:
I’ve got three girls. My wife and I are always asking them to do stuff. We ask them to sit with us at the supper table and eat instead of eating in the living room – which they prefer. We ask that they brush their teeth even if they hate it. We ask them to help clean up even when they don’t see the point. In fact, they don’t see the point in these things most of the time, but we feel it either healthy for our family relationship, or it is healthy for their wellbeing. If they refused to eat at the table, brush their teeth, or cleanup – we would still call them our children and love them. We don’t ask our daughters to do these things as a test, so we can decipher if they think we are good parents or not. We love them and want the best for them. When they choose not to take our suggestion, it is disappointing and harder on them, but they are still our girls.
It seems to me to be relational, always.
A step further. As they get older, they may choose to do nothing we ask, hate us, and never talk to us or see us. We would probably still love them and call them our children, but they have chosen to stay away from us; what can we do?
Now we are into the topic of hell again; people choosing to live apart from God.
Like I said, it is a start.
How do you think God would raise children?
Brian
Okay, here is one for the masses. I have often said, when discussing with friends about such issues, "Oh, that is not a salvation issue." Tonight, I thought about that for the first time.
We can disagree about instruments, when we participate in communion, woman's role, etc; but are okay with that because we say they are not salvation issues.
What are the salvation issues? And what does that mean if we do disagree on the salvation issues?
Do we really mean that if group A thinks this way about a spiritual issue, and group B thinks another way about the same issue, but both are loving God - that one is a child of God and the other is not?
Take the Bible. If I say it was written by a group of people representing thier understanding of God and it was written by God through a group of people; is that a salvation issue? What does that mean? Again, I would like a list of the salvation issues.
Thinking,
Brian
wow john, its posts like this, and the comments that follow, that make me think that we should coordinate some kind of blogging scheme... where a few of us all blog about the same topic on the same day... a "blog-o-grid", we might call it.
nah. sounds lame.
i don't know at this point whether i should be commenting about hell or baptism...
there's a moment from Jesus' life that has been haunting me lately... when he says "forgive, they know not what they do."
pretty much sums up all of humanity, doesn't it?
Oh God, I don’t love you,
I don’t even want to love you,
but I want to want to love you!
- Saint Teresa of Avila
yes, people "knowingly reject God" and "choose to turn their backs on him", but i don't think any of us really understand what's going on, any more than Jesus' murderers did. i'm not trying to say it doesn't matter what we do... but God birthed us into a battle, and, if you fit the pieces together of a standard Christian worldview, he knew that the majority of us were going to go down as casualties of the battle. that most of us would end up on the wrong side. maybe you're completely un-calvinistic, we absolutely determine our own fates, but God must have still had a rough estimate on how many he'd end up keeping. Say, 2%, give or take the Baptists and Mennonites? (at least thats what i think i learned in sunday school).
or, ok, you're not so tight about some of the rites within christianity--the baptisms, the communions, the tithes, the bumper stickers--all the standard fare. maybe God gets 20% now.
oh, you're a "good non-christian people get in too" type? well alright, i'll bump this up to a 50%, a 50/50 split... but no more.
however you want to draw your lines--and it seems like everyone ends up doing just that eventually, drawing a circle around their own group, however broadly they may define it--you end up with a pretty rough deal for humanity. and it seems odd to me that the same guy who said "they know not what they do," would have set this whole scheme in motion. at least, as far as we've understood the story.
If the gospel is:
"All of your friends and family are going to burn for eternity because their sin has seperated them from God!" followed by "but YOU can avoid that by X, Y, and Z... (see also "by loving God with all your heart," which comes with X, Y, and Z as standard expectations, though phrased in a more welcoming way)... and after you get saved you can try to convince a few more people that they are actually on the road to distruction..."
then to me...
what jumps out is not good news at all.
its bad news.
very, very bad news.
the titanic is sinking, but the girl might make it. makes a good movie, but a horrible reality.
with an indivually-based, blood-tainted silver lining.
if THAT is the gospel,
i just don't know if i can do it.
When Jesus said, "they know not what they do", he was speaking specifically of the actions of those who crucified him. He was refering that they do not know the implications of what they are doing. (It's also just an obvious example of Jesus' willingness to forgive and love of mankind).
They also didn't have easy access to God's word, whatever form it came in, other than personal prophets and apostles they may be so fortunate to meet. Today, of course, we do have plenty of access to God's word. (Stores, pews in churches, plenty of preachers, as well as several charitable organizations). Certainly in North America, anyway.
So as comment #16 on this incredibly interesting and compelling topic, my point is this. I think church attendance, in some form, communion, and baptism are all VERY important instructions, and examples from the Bible. Naturally, we should grow in faith and study, worship, and share the truth with everyone. (Among several other directives set forth in the Bible).
This discussion has been great, makes us study our beliefs and not take things as just the way they are. On the other hand, to second-guess God's word can also become dangerous, devisive, and cost us our souls. Having said that, just plain following those directives without love, genuine worship, or Christian kindness can also be detrimental. (Luke warm or even cold hearted). I do like Brian's analogy of raising his girls and God's love and instruction. (Same for boys too, lol).
This is why I brought up that question of re-baptism.
Thanks guys.
Steve
that's exactly what i see in the verse, steve, that they didn't understand the implications of what they were doing. and i realize that he was speaking specifically about them, but i think everyone's in the same boat. people might understand the immediate physical implications, but perhaps not the reality of things. and i would even argue that the word of God might be just as inaccessable in today's world as it was then. the barriers are different, but i think there's a lot that keeps people from being able to clearly hear the word of God. mostly, it's us. they usually just hear more of our Christian gobble-di-gook, and have no idea why they are being judged the way they are.
i know i've been second-guessing what i've learned, but at this point in time, a positive response to the gospel as i described it in my earlier post, would be completely out of fear on my part, not at all out of gratefulness or love.
i travel with the kids in the choir and think "God is good". i listen to a lot of sermons, and it causes me doubt.
Hey everyone, your passion is inspiring. For a doctrine that we C of Cers have typically viewed as the most important it sure doesn't get very much air time. Ask most people, including preachers, what they think and they either give a safe, sanitized, cliched answer or offer to book a coffee with you so they have time to come up with something meaningful to say. I think that most people would rather work out their faith privately then on a forum like this or in church which is why the topic never seems to come up. Job security and reputation too often trumps genuine faith dialogue, and I think that's a crying shame.
Before I respond to some of what has been said I'd like to extend a very enthusiastic welcome to Mr. Scrawney and Captain Anonymous. I believe you both are here as first time visitors which makes you our honored guests. Fill free to stay as long as you like and if you'd like to make a donation just send me some Oiler tickets and we'll call it even.
First off, the fact that my brother agrees with me obviously means I'm right. My brother is another one of those deep thinkers who isn't content to keep his views to himself and for that - I love him to death, even when we disagree.
Secondly, I want to give a super high five to Steve. Knowing Steve and his views and knowing especially how far apart we seem to be on so many issues the fact that he continues to dialogue with me and ask thoughtful questions inspires me as it reflects a deep faith, and one he takes very serious. Re:Rebaptism. You won't find a theological premises either way so I think it comes down to relationship. Many couples choose to renew their vows and often it yields very healthy and positive results so I think the same could be true if you chose to be rebaptized. Either way I think its more a relational question then a theological one.
Thirdly, I think Brian's onto something big when he speaks of the relationship between the physical and spiritual. In ancient times the Greeks never knew of such a separation but the enlightenment has done that all too well for us. If there is no separation, would that change the meaning of baptism?
Jord, I think you propose another hell of a topic. I definetly have views on that too, I'm sure we all do, and i think there is a link with this discussian. So let's do it. Blair has wisely begun this discussian on his own blog so I suggest we all go there and continue our faith dialogue.
Roberta,
Its great to have you here too. You come from an incredible line of faith and so I feel there is much authority connected to your answer. Although I may disagree on the idea of baptism as a transaction I definetly agree that there is a strong spiritual component present and when we make the decision to formally, as John said, give our life to God, I think everything changes.
Captain,
Your point on hell and the Catholic church has much merit. Good call. What does that mean for our doctrine of hell? Hmm. Its worth talking about. Go to Blair's blog.
Brian.
Regarding your question of Salvation issues. I definetly believe they exist but what they are seems to more often come down to personality more then theology.
Dave,
Man, I'm envious of your writing skills. Jerk.
I love your titanic imagery especially the line about the girl and I think you have a point about how that relates to the good news. In fact, I think CofCers would do well to revisit what the good news actually entails. I smell a future post coming on.
As far as anything else I might want to add, I say we will do a diservice to the church if the discussian ends here. We must engage people in our church to talk about things such as this. Their almost certainly already talking about it anyways so we might as well yank them out of the dark corners and bring God's word to light.
Thanks everyone, please continue.
John
Yeah, Oilers........Flames. We are so far apart on that, lol.
Don't get me wrong; I don't think it's wrong to think outloud about the things we've been discussing, or I wouldn't be discussing them myself. (Or I'd be a complete idiot by saying one thing and doing the opposite).
I do think along the lines of Roberta, however, and believe baptism is a calling we have as following Christ, being active Christians. (The argument of what if, what if is kind of shallow, in my opinion, in the sense that we could go on forever in this argument and never know the answer until, well, until it's too late). So to do something out of 'fear' as Dave is not necessarily a bad thing. Remember the Ethiopian with Paul, "Here's some water, why don't I get baptized now". There had to be SOME realization that he NEEDED to do this or face an alternative, right?
Anyway, I again must thank you all for this discussion, and the kind compliments from the host. (Although I would have to state that I don't think we are as far apart in our faith and beliefs than you think - who goes to an instrumental church with a non-Church of Christ name - but of the same roots....however from what I can tell, you have had your heart into it much deeper than I for much of your life, and for that I respect and commend you). After all, you are the minister, not me!
Enjoy what will soon be the week-end boys, enjoy.
Steve
this is pertinent.
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