Dave Turner's a heretic. Obviously. Anyone who raises the question of whether or not truth can be found outside of Christianity must be. Dave shared how the Life of Pi made him think - which is frightening because thinking leads to thoughts which leads to conclusions which leads to choices which may or may not lead to converting to Confucianism. Take a quick glance at the history of Christianity and it'll show that much of it involves Christian leaders killing those who don't agree, or worse, think free. Think about it for a second. I mean, consider it for a second. Jesus died in 30 a.d. give or take 3.14 years and people began to speak of the way of him shortly after that. Hence the NT. Fast forward 300 years and Constantine decides that maybe these Christians aren't so bad after all. Next thing you know the Super Power of the day becomes Christian. The same faith of its leader who they killed only 300 years earlier. Talk about moody. A few days after the big conversion all the heretic's are rounded up and either killed or "inspired" to convert. Pretty soon the world begins to warm up to this new found faith. "Yeh, Christianity is super cool." - 4th century Roman with a blade on his throat. At the same time, the bible comes out which of course legitimizes butchering those who don't agree. Or does it? Hmm, must read again. Anyways, the next 1100 years involves Christians of the Catholic brand dominating the world, killing those who don't agree, especially those pesky Muslims. Its much easier to hate a cousin then a unknown peaceful man from Tibet. At the same time the Catholic Christians are even butchering those other guys, Protestants, heretics, free thinkers. That is until a guy named Luther says that's enough. There is no way you have a monopoly on truth. Here's 95 things I suggest you think about. Suprisingly Luther lived a few years after mainly because most of the world said, wait a second, he's right, we don't have to be told what to believe. We can pursue God on our own. So began the Protestant Reformation, that big boring thing we all slept through in Bible College. It turns out its not boring at all though, but the beginning of humans thinking free and seeking God for God's sake. If that's isn't awesome a few decades later the Printing Press was born and pretty soon bibles were in the hands of nearly everyone, those who could read anyways, which was very few. Meanwhile the Papacy kept its stranglehold on people's minds and truth by refusing to translate the bible into English thus forcing people to listen and nod to Latinspeak for the better part of 300 years. In fact it wasn't until 1965 that Catholic powers said - ok fine, we'll translate it into English, but you gotta calm down. Seriously. Your anger is unchristian.
Back up 200 years and you'll find that people become enlightened. In fact, they were so enligthened they called this time, The age of Enlightenment. During this time people were free to work out their faith except for one thing. . .they must do it this way - literally and factually. (by the way, this way of biblical interpretation is only 200 years old, which you know, is interesting.) This created a whole new kind of domination system. One that said "where the bible speaks, we speak, where the bible is silent, we're silent." In other words, interpret the bible this way. This in turn created a back door oppression, one that still kept people from thinking for themselves and having their own relationship with God. If you're told what to think are you really thinking? So, the good news was people weren't getting butchered anymore but the bad news was their thoughts were still held captive. They were enlightened yet their minds were dark.
But that was then, where are we now?
Well, we're living in an age of Pluralism. Which means, we are no longer just a Christian nation but a Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, etc. nation as well. Some see that as progression. And it is. But there are still more progressions that must come.
I believe we have far to go in our faith, in our quest for who Jesus really was and what he really said. And what that means for us today. I believe we have far to go in our quest for truth. I no longer believe truth can only be found within the 66 books of the bible. This does not mean I no longer believe in truth or the truth in the bible, I believe in it more then ever. I just don't believe the other 3 billion people in the world are Satan's children destined for eternity in hell. I see many of them seeking God, seeking truth, seeking to be a person of goodness with the same or even more passion then me. Have they come to the same conclusions as me? No. Does that mean they're wrong? Not necessarily. Truth can be tricky and appear in the strangest of places and who am I to say only I know where those places are.
Marcus Borg posed a question that I've been chewing on for some time now. "Does it make sense that the creator of the whole universe would be known in only one religious tradition, which fortunately, just happens to be our own."
No, it doesn't make sense. Christianity has had the Monopoly on truth for the past 2000 years but consequently it has also had the monopoly on blood shed, which, to be honest, I find those two things to be strange bed fellows.
So, what are you saying John?
Truth is everywhere. God is too big to be contained in a book or a system of theology which is why he doesn't invite his creation into a religion, he invites us into a relationship. If we pursue that instead of the former perhaps we'll find something More. And that More will change our lives.
WHAT JOHN IS NOT SAYING
- Believe whatever you want
- Christianity is no longer true
- The Bible is no longer our guide
- Catholics are evil. In fact, I feel quite the opposite.
- All religions are the same so fill free to belong to whoever you want
- Rage against authority
- Dave Turner's a Heretic
John
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17 comments:
Hi........it's Anony Mous again. Before you strike me down....I promise to be polite.
Good thoughts. My point is this; if truth is not one way, one answer; if truth is a blurr and not clear, then isn't the defintion of truth, or the word "truth" a word without meaning?
Is it an obsolete word in the grand scheme of truth versus blasphemy?
Just curious.....
"STEVE"
dave turner is a heretic.
just for the record.
i want to comment more when i don't have to be in hebrews class, but, heck yeah...
blair
in response to steve, i don't think that this makes truth blurry, and therefore something that holds no meaning.
on the contrary, this makes truth something much larger than our experience. we define truth based on what we believe to be right. in western christianity, we have our perceptions of who is in and out, and to a larger extent, who is saved and who isn't, and this largely colors this conversation of truth being a one-way street. because we say that Christ is the only way, does that mean people have to follow Christ in the same way that we do in order to be saved? or is it possible that in one's search for God, God and Jesus being one and the same, they maybe have that relationship and have some aspect of truth that may be valid? this is just one question that comes to my mind from this train of thought.
i mean, some christians would disagree, but muslims and jews worship the same God that we do. it may not be in the context of Jesus Christ, which is central to christians, but does that mean that there is no truth to the relationship that muslims and jews have with God?
maybe i missed the point of what you were saying, but this is my feeble attempt to dialogue, because it is important for us as christians to talk about this and not shove it under the rug and paint it in black and white like we have tended to do in the past. thanks for the discussion john and steve.
xblairx
Nice post, man (very Borg-esque). ;-)
People tend to have a really hard time admitting how tenuous the link is between what they believe and what's actually the case. Human beings are fallible, which means all of us hold some (or even many) false beliefs. And what's the likelihood that none of those false beliefs shape our religious/spiritual convictions? It takes some serious arrogance (delusions of infallibility, you could say) for a person to claim ownership of, or access to, The Absolute Truth (tm). And yet... Isn't that exactly what most religions do?
Religions often leave no room for realistic, provisional belief. When's the last time you heard a Christian say, "God probably exists... I'm about 60% certain"? That would practically be blasphemy. "Converts" are expected to jump straight in with both feet (bonus points for doing it with your eyes closed), and, if you can't do that--i.e., if all you can muster is provisional assent to the idea that God might exist, and he might be something like, say, the Christian God--then you've got "faith issues." Epistemic humility is treated like a disease that needs to be eradicated.
In a poll I was reading about a few months ago, it was found that 70% of Americans claim to know for a fact, without any doubt whatsoever, that God exists. Think of that! It must be pretty boring to be able to answer all the Big Questions so flippantly. Again, where's the provisionality? Where's the humility? Why can't people deal with uncertainty?
In my opinion, part of the reason people have so much trouble admitting to their own uncertainty is that religious conviction in and of itself has long been considered a virtue, standing in "brave" opposition to the so-called vice of doubt. The stronger your belief, and the more disproportionate to the evidence, the greater the virtue. This is the exact opposite of how it should be. People should be praised for having the humility to admit when they don't know something. They shouldn't feel compelled by social pressure to claim absolute certainty when, deep down, they have doubts. If anything, doubt should be the virtue.
Before I end my rant, let me just say this: I think it's perfectly ok and natural to have metaphysical/religious beliefs. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't confuse them for absolute truths, and we shouldn't hold to them with an unwarranted degree of conviction. And we should stop stigmatizing doubt. Ok, I'm done...
god is love.
not god is only love if you learned it in bible school.
now, lets not take this overboard, john... i might still be a heretic. and you oughta be fired.
here's what i see taking place in some of the conversation here:
John: "I'm not saying X or Y"
Others: "So you're saying X and Y?? But Z says X is not true!"
growing up in the COC, i learned to have a file cabinet in my head, with files containing pre-prepared responses (including 'applicable' proof-texts) to all sorts of different issues. there's a file on drinking, a file on pre-marital sex, a file on divorce, several files on creation and womens' roles, and a whole drawer full on instrumental worship, baptism, and catholicism. (interestingly enough, i've looked EVERYWHERE and can't find that darned file on justice and mercy.) i feel like to some extent here, we're pulling papers out in a flurry from our "pluralism", "relativism" and "post-modernism" files and slapping them on the table (with the highest of sincerity--eager to teach the truth in love, the truth of God is of the utmost importance to us) before we've actually read and considered what john is saying here. in fact, when i learned to recite the answers to this one (like with most issues), i never once actually had the opportunity to hear from someone who held to the 'opposing' view. have we ever stopped to hear what people are saying, or do we just respond based on what our teachers and preachers SAY that these people say? re-read the bottom of john's post, what he's NOT saying, and THEN read the rest of the post from the beginning, and then read the bottom part again.
you know where i'm at, john.. perhaps you can see where i'm at better than i understand it myself.. i certainly am not content to live within the us/them boundaries which paint "them" as the "truthless ruthless". (i made that one up this morning and am so stoked that i got the chance to use it... sweet).
preach it, brother. wanna meet for some hot stakes later? (haha, get the heretic pun there?)
on another note... are there people out there who don't take guys like me and blair seriously because we don't take the time to use proper mechanics like capitalizing?
a cool post to read sitting in the middle of china! thanks for making me think john, and all those of you wrote comments that were way too long. and kris too.
hey friend,
blair roberts has a new blog.
btotherock.blogspot.com
Ok commenters. Here's my comments on your comments. I'll go from top to bottom. All 11.
1. Steve.
Blair that dog actually stole my answer so part of my comment is to for you to re read his comment. Besides what Blair said, here's some of my thoughts.
Its natural for us to believe our truth is the only truth, the one way, the one answer, which is why its ours and why we call it truth. On the other hand, just because its our truth doesn't make it the only truth, way, answer. This is not to say that everyone's truth is true, it just means that perspective is needed anytime we uncork the bottles and have a "what is truth party."
What is our truth? Well, as Blair said its Western, but I'll also add its Capitalist Imperial First word literalistic Church of Christ Canadian version of the truth. So, truth exists there it just doesn't ONLY exist there. I believe it also exists in a Eastern Socialist 3rd world abstract Church of Christ Tibetan version of the truth. Now notice I assumed the Tibetan was Christian, which he probably isn't but for arguement sake, he is. Do you honestly think his version of the bible and Christianity and image of God is the same as ours? His version and image of good food isn't even the same is ours. So for us to look at his "truth" and claim its blurry, unclear and even wrong is well, silly.
On the other hand, imagine that same Tibetan man is Buddhist, which he surely is. Does this mean he is void of truth? Well, I gurantee he will disagree with elements of our truth but having spoken with a Buddhist face to face I also know that he would agree with many elements of our truth. Just as, we would agree with many elements of his. So, for us to say that truth only exists in the Christian tradition means truth and God are now in a box and limted. I don't believe they can be.
2. Blair.
Blair wasn't really in Hebrews class. He was laying on the couch in his gotch, scratching, eating chips and watching another OC rerun. Heck yeah.
3. Blair again.
Exactly. I think Blair's onto something here. Truth cannot be contained or sanitized by our own understanding of it. If Jesus is the way the truth and the life then surely that way and truth and life is vast in dimension and understanding.
Re:Dialogue. I think Blair deserves the 4th season of the OC on DVD for his willingness to dialogue. In fact, I think we all need to read Blair's comments just to see how to dialogue in a respectful and inviting way. Too often, me included we are guilty of sacrificing respectful arguements for witty banter and exaggerated sarcastic points. Let's not allow our flair for writing to ruin the dialogue. Nice job Blair for showing us especially me how not to do that.
4. My brother
First off, I'm more thrilled then a bumblebee in heat that my brother joined our conversation. We sometimes disagree but he always makes me think and this time was no exception. "I wonder if I can find a new brother?" JK.
First off Al, the phrase "heresy of Buddhism" - which heresies are you referring to?
Second, you speak of the "freedom found in Christ." I love that freedom. In fact, that same freedom has made my life bearbale in times of unbearable pain and anxiety and wonderful in times of crap, um, sure, wonder. I believe in that freedom with all my heart.
What I wonder is: Is it possible for people to experience the freedom of Christ outside the Christian tradition? Are all non christians including Buddhists imprisoned? Because I gotta tell you, at times I wouldn't mind some of their peace. In fact, for people who are free Christians can be the most uptight stressed out people in the world. Just food for thought.
On the other hand I complety agree with you that just because well meaning people have USED God and Christianity for their own selfish purposes doesn't mean that fault should be found with Christianity itself. Totally agree. In fact I think that is the main reason why there is such a huge influx out of the church of mainly the 20 somethings. They have been turned off of Christianity because the people in power has abused it by selling them a truth that wasn't the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God - but their version of the truth which these 20 somethings can't buy because it just doesn't feel truth. Discerning whether the problem is with the 20's feelings or the power's truth is a task worth attending too.
NOBODY LEAVES CHRISTIANITY BECAUSE OF CHRIST! It just doesn't happen.
5. My other brother Jordan
I'm sorry to have to tell you this but they've discontinued the bonus point system as it was deemed to be a work based incentive.
I agree with you that Christians seem to praise believe/faith and look down on and even judge those who doubt. I've witnessed this first hand and experience it first hand. Doubting people make Chrisitans nevervous because A. Their losing their faith. B. Their asking questions I don't know the answers too. Often times both A and B are the case. I've had countless discussians over the years where I say them react in those ways even though all I was doing was searching for a faith that was mine. As a church we need to do MUCH better at allowing people to doubt perhaps even leave for awhile knowing that it often is the very best thing for their faith. If we have loved them enough then perhaps they will trust us enough to allow us to go along with them on their doubt journey. That would be the best scenario.
Heck, we could even start a new program.
Doubting? Let the church help.
6. Allen
I liked the way you explained faith here Al, it really helped me. Faith is a decision you make based on a relationship you have with God. It has nothing to do with evidence but more to do with a choice. I like that. And I think your right.
7. Kris
I think what Kris is reacting to here is Christianity's domination of the God is love truth. God is love is a believe of most people in the world, not just those whe learned he was love by singing Jesus loves me or studying in Sunday school.
In other words, God is Love is more a statement of reality then a doctrine.
8. Dave
I'm not going to get fired Dave. I already quit. Jk. I just wanted to sound like a rebel.
I loved your File analogy. I agreed with your file analogy. In fact, I think I too have had and even have files in my head and like you the ones about social justice and the poor weren't created until a few years ago. I can't believe I spent the better part of 3 decades ignoring the most talked about theme in scripture. Wow. I guess I missed that TRUTH.
I agree that often we already have our mind and our answers made up before we even give an opposing view a good read or good think. I know I spent most of my life liked that. That is what is commonly known as "narrow mindedness" or even fear, I know for me it was often both. I didn't know the answer, I didn't have an answer and so I launched nuclear arguements that I thought were "da bomb" but in fact were just blanks because they didn't address or answer what the other person or viewpoint was asking.
At the same time, I don't necessarily agree with you that that is what the other commenters in this post were doing. I think they did read my stuff and we answering out of their convictions and beliefs. Just because they didn't agree doesn't mean they're wrong or narrow minded. Their just as passionate about their faith as we are about ours.
As I've said before Dave, you are a very talented writer and a great thinker and I look forward to seeing you continue to grow in both. Love to have some steak.
9. Al.
Thanks Al. Hope it was happy for you too.
10. Jeremy
Glad I could help Jeremy. Love reading about your exploits in China. Man that motorcycle crash sounded. . .ouch. Hope to see you again soon.
11. Blair
Shameless advertising.
So there you have it boys. I loved the conversation and am looking forward to many more.
In fact, as I look down this list, gees, I love you guys.
I'm out.
John
Interesting responses and comments for everyone. (Yes, I am over-compensating for being an a** before)?!
John, I like your brother and probably reason like he does in this conversation. (He just uses bigger words and sounds more educated than me....which I know he is).
As a closer, not a CLOSE-rrrr, I must simplify all these long, well-written comments be reverting back to the original one I posted. What is TRUTH? God is not wishy-washy on this, and you either believe the Holy Bible or you don't. Yes, there are some liberties in interpretation of the Bible, but at the end of the day, their is one clear way to Salvation. I am not saying the "Churches of Christ" are the only place to find where they follow this way; after all I now attend a church that has a different name on the front. (Though its' roots are in the CofC or restoration movement).
The rocks of faith in the Bible are the same; believe in Jesus as the son of God and the only way, truth and life/light; repent of your sins through confession; be baptized as Jesus example via full immersion....yes dunking.
Now, are there other 'spiritual', good people out there? Sure are. But if they choose other ways to serve the same God, then they are in danger of diverting themselves from salvation. Can we listen and learn from them? Sure can. But at the end of the day, we can not waiver from our direction of following Christ and the Bible.
This is just MY opinion, and as you can see.....I have created a comment as long as the ones I originally said were long and used big words. (Minus the BIG words).
Thanks for the feedback!
steve,
this isn't at all to pick a fight, i just love having this kind of a conversation, and i'd like to keep it going, especially with someone who might not agree with me, because that is more interesting!
but i just noticed a couple things in your last post that i wanted to touch on.
you said, "you either believe in the bible or you don't". the question i would ask if "whose interpretation of the bible?" you listed the basics that we can know for sure in the bible, the rocks of faith you said, but those rocks of faith are your rocks of faith. at the risk of sounding like a pluralist here, and being accused of such, i just want to point out that those things you state to be 'clear' in the bible are not quite so clear to others. so that being the case, do we have a God who will not save people simply because their interpretation is different than the commonly held ones? the bible has been translated so many times and there are many examples today where our NIV bibles have taken liberties that many would say should not have been taken. i know that might not be the case with the specific verses you are talking about, but can't it then be said that it is at the very least possible that the commonly held beliefs about what is essential to salvation in the bible could be different than what our modern interpretations tell us? does that make any sense, or am i just blabbing?
for me, i believe that Jesus is crucial, and that life with Jesus is the best life that can be lived, and i worship him, not the bible. that being said, i am not saying you are worshipping the bible and not Jesus. that was just the best way i could describe my feelings on this topic. without the bible, we wouldn't know Jesus the way we do, and for that, I hold the bible close to my heart and see it as a book of life. but the bible is not a set of rules, it is a story. it's a story of love and life, and i just don't like the idea of saying it's the bibles way or the highway, especially when our ideas of what the bible is saying vary differently from many others.
which bring us back to the question of what is truth, and that is where this conversation will end today because i have too much work to do. thanks for the conversation!
OK Blair.....you can have the last word..........o wait, now I do.....
You said it yourself, however; "without the Bible, how could we know Jesus at all". I would also argue that the Bible is much more than just a story. But who really knows until we all meet at judgement day. (Which is when our God can each give us points where we ere right, and take away points where we were wrong, tally it up, and send us either somewhere nice, or somewhere really hot)?! ...ahhhhhh.....hot, like Mexico, where I will be in less than 4 weeks.
Thanks for the chatter.....
Score last word to ANONY MOUS, lol
and turner takes the pass... throws it up from half-court... nails the buzzer beater!!! 3 points, and the last word!
re-reading, i came across as a lot more stand-off-ish than i intended to up there... or perhaps i indeed WAS more stand-off-ish than i wish i would ever be. i'm not sure which. either way, sorry.
you guys are all way too smart for me.
my own opinion of truth, i'll admit, is way too subjective at times--subjected to and affected by even the condition of my insides. i tell you what, an upset stomach is bad news for faith.
there's also something in me that is (either conciously or sub-conciously, or both) protesting. there are some things in the Bible and in the telling of the gospel that we all grew up with, that i just don't WANT to be true. i don't want that one guy in Judges to sacrifice his daughter to God. i don't want most of Joshua to happen. and I don't want Mark 16:16 to be in there (but then, neither do some scholars involved in textual criticism...).
so maybe that's why my mind has started exploring. i want to be able to be completely honest when i say "God is good". i read the other day (i think it was bruggeman?) where someone said that a non-christian who cannot accept that God is good might be farther along than a christian who has never thought for themselves whether God actually is good, but just sings the songs.
in life, what i'm surrounded with out here on tour is a hurricane of goodness. it is such a testament to God's goodness. when i'm with the children and watch what's happening out here, i don't have a doubt in my mind about God's goodness. the rocks and hills seem to agree. but when i'm in the scriptures--mostly the OT--i have a much harder time, and i'm looking for a way to reconcile these two worlds, i suppose.
did i say last word? i think i meant to say last essay...
maybe that buzzer-beater only tied the game and took us into overtime. who's stepping up for the jump-ball?
And Dave drives the lane jumps and NO LOOK PASS TO ALLEN IN THE CORNER. Al, looks at the clock, sees 3 seconds are left, sets his feet and launches. . .
Is it a swish?
John
..........GAMBLE forearms John and Dave and is given his fourth technical foul.......
In other words, only violence would solve this dead-lock. Let's all read further and see where our faith goes. O...I know a good book to start with! It starts with B and ends in e.......any ideas?
Swish!
Thanks Al.
John
Al was a pretty good ball player back in the day - well he used to come by and school John & I in our day, which was a few years after his day so I bet he was pretty good in "the day"...
good discussion - Dave's statement caught my attention - my way of thinking also seems to depend on what's going on within me. My wife can change it all in an instant.
Also a good reminder Al, for me after all the discussion I must attempt to make it apply, here and now, in my place. The question "How do I love my neighbour or my family?" seems big enough most days.
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